Return to the Ruins of Adventure - Session 4: Innfighting

(Ah, the end of May means the end of school for the most part around here and with 4 kids in 3 different schools (4 different schools next year) our routine goes straight to heck as field days and art shows and award ceremonies suck up 3- 5 days and nights a week. We're now in the first week of summer and trying to establish the summer routine and getting the blog rolling again is one of my goals.)

Anyway, we last left our heroes outside the lair of the once-feared Whiteye the goblin chieftain. Their prisoner/guide had been dumped into the pit that he failed to warn them about, and they had identified several magic items - all in all, a good day. Now they decided to head out to the Bell tavern and shake down Nat Wyler for his guild dues.

Making their way through the Slums of Phlan, they eventually come to the inn they seek. The Bell is a homey-looking structure, obviously repaired sometime in the recent past but solid-looking nonetheless. Smoke is rising from the chimney, but there are no horses outside. Looks perfect for a bit of strong-arming, so they enter.

Inside the place is nice enough - wood floors, wooden tables and chairs and some booths. It looks as though they were looted from ten different establishments that they called home before this place but none of them are broken. There is a long wooden bar that is polished in some places, scratched in others, has a few head-shaped dents in it, and in at least one spot appears to have burned. There is no visible barkeep or waiter, but three orcs are drinking loudly at one table.

Kordan calls out for a barkeep and pounds on the bar but no one answers. Steering clear of the orcs, Javanni and the fighter move down the bar and spy pout the rest of the main room, seeing no other patrons. Kordan eventually goes behind the bar and liberates some drinks for the others. While he's there the biggest orc yells for him to send some his way and the fighter yells back to get his own. The orc shrugs and cuffs one of his drinking buddies, who goes behind the bar and gets a few more bottles too.

Still curious, some of our heroes go to the kitchen where they find a single human barkeep/cook (he's multiclassed!) huddled in a corner. He says that he hates the orcs and they've been there for hours and are mean to him. He's hoping that they will go away soon but right now he's very afraid. Not terrible concerned with his morale problems, Kordan and Javanni ask about Nat Wyler and the barkeep confirms that Nat owns the place but he's rarely around now and that he himself pretty much runs the Bell day-to-day. he doesn't know where Nat lives but he knows he has business in the ruins and that takes up most of his time. The party leaves the cook and retires to the common room to discuss options.

Back in the taproom they ask the big orc if he knows Nat Wyler, but he does not. he assumes some human owns the place as they are likely the only ones who could pull this off, but he doesn't really pay attention to that kind of thing. He's busy training and drillng over at the big temple across the river. He and the boys break away every once in a while for some drinking and this is a place they like.

Returning to their original mission, the party realized they aren't likely to run into Nat at the inn and their orders were to teach him a lesson, so they decide to burn down the bar. They hustle the terrified innkeeper out along with some of his belongings and the strongbox from the bar. Then they warn the orcs of what they are about to do, preparing for violence. The orcs load up on more bottles and kegs and head on out the door, except for the leader. He stays inside and watches as the party starts to set the fire.

"No no no" he says - "This is how you burn a place down" and proceeds to tear up padded seats and pile the stuffing in a corner, douses some of the place with alcohol and generally demonstrates his considerable knowledge in how to set something on fire. Then they all leave the inn together.

Standing outside watching the fires take hold, the orcs and our heroes part ways as almost friends. The leader gives his name as Thrugg Bullneck, and he wasn't upset about being rousted out of the bar as he figures it's some human dispute and well, maybe humans aren't that different from orcs after all if they're willing to set each others places on fire. Agreeing to spread the word on who and why the Bell was set ablaze and with much fist-bumping, the orcs head off towards the river.

The party makes sure the inn is burning well before they decide to head back into civilized Phlan as it is near sundown when the gates close for the night. As they turn to go they see a party of 4 human adventurers standing in the street gazing open-mouthed at the burning Bell. Then their gazes focus on the people walking away from the blaze. Weapons are drawn and incantations begin as 2 fighters, a rogue, and a wizard take exception to the group's activity.

This was one of the toughest fights the party had faced., with opponents as capable as they were and well-acquainted with working together. Opponents were marked on both sides, magic missiles and thunderbursts were unleashed, and much shifting and sliding was done each round. Mikal the Warlock was down and dying at one point, and all of the party was bloodied during the fight, but a well-timed critical strike took down one of the opposing fighters and after that the 5 to 3 numbers advantage for our heroes was telling. Battered and bloodied, in the end they stood victorious over their attackers.

Returning to Phlan they just made it in before the gates were closed for the night. Making the rounds the next day the council awarded them with the promised Sun Blade and a 100gp reward for the head of Whiteye. The Guild awarded them a favorable rating for future business and more gold. Having gained a ton of valuable experience, some magic weapons, and a decent amount of gold, the party contemplates their next challenge in the Ruins of Adventure.

DM Notes:

• I had planned the orcs in the inn as a combat encounter but the party didn't attack them or insult them and I had ruled they were more interested in drinking than in starting a fight but would respond if their god, their tribe, or their leader were insulted or if they were directly threatened. The party did none of these things and actually managed to have them help burn down the bar! I awarded full XP for this one and I imagine Thrugg will have to make a return appearance somewhere down the road.
• The human adventuring party was also planned as a combat encounter and was a little less dependent on PC attitudes. I had a skill challenge back-up plan if they claimed that the orcs had set the fires but as it turned out I didn't need as my players were only too happy to draw steel on these guys.
• This was the toughest fight of the campaign so far because human NPC's can DO SOMETHING INTERESTING! The mage had mult-target attack spells and a dazing attack, the fighters had reach weapons and could mark, and the rogue could sneak attack and daze his targets, all of which paid off immensely in actually making the party feel like they were threatened. After so many goblins fights that were not all that lively for the DM this was a serious breath of fresh air. It lasted 7 rounds, everyone was bloodied at some point, and 2 characters dropped below 0 HP's -the warlock and the wizard - because the fighter and the swordmage had defenders of their own to deal with, enabling the rogue to strike as he pleased and the wizard to target the backfield instead of the front line. If I had added a 5th member to the opposing party it could have gone very badly, so the DM learned some things here too.
• Some rules questions did come up here and I didn't want to spend a great deal of time looking them up during the fight - do marks and curses remain when their creator drops unconscious? The warlock had multiple curses out, dropped below zero for a round, then was pulled back up a round later - are his curses still out there? I have to dig through a few things and find this as it can make a difference in how the fight goes. Magical zones and things could have the same thing happen.
• The party is a little light in magic at this point but has more gold than the guidelines for 4th suggest, so I'm calling it even. Level 1 skews a little weird anyway because there are no items at a lower level than the party, the weakest you can do is same-level. Actually monsters work the same way, so Level 1 is a strange spot to be anyway.
• All in all it was a good session with some funny RP with the orcs, a good fight, and my in-the-past-usually-good-aligned-and-including-a-paladin-party not being so strongly good this time hanging out with orcs and burning down a bar - it's like a Shadowrun campaign! Anyway the party is 2nd level now and the next expedition will probably be into Kuto's Well.

4th edition Sidetrack - Warlords

I've been reading through the Martial Power books and while Fighters and Rangers and Rogues are all fun the thing that has stood out to me the most is the class that is new for D&D 4, the Warlord. Now he can cause about as much damage as a fighter with many of his attacks though he's a little less durable but his "thing" is that a lot of his abilities boost other party members in some way. He can heal, he can give bonuses to attacks and to damage, he can help people move faster than normal, and he can even let people act when it's not their turn. It's a fascinating class to me and it's a little like the Paladin used to play in our groups in 1st and 2nd edition - up front hitting stuff but also able to heal and do some minor magic and turn undead. A warlord has powers like "Rub Some Dirt On it" which lets him heal a small amount as a minor action with a touch. A lot of his attack powers are something like "Seize the Opening - do double damage with your melee weapon and a nearby ally can make a free attack with their weapon" or "Rallying Strike - Do normal damage with a melee weapon and everyone within 25' can heal 5 points + your Cha modifier." I am convinced that this is an awesome thing to have in a D&D game and I am betting it would have been cool back in the old days too.

I am a little disappointed no one took one in my current campaign but the leader type class that was taken is a Bard, and I have been very impressed. His powers just reinforce the idea that hit points are about a lot more than physical damage capacity. That has always been the case, but 4th takes the idea and runs off with it like no other edition has. "Vicious Mockery" is a ranged, damage-casing attack for a bard and it is hilarious to see it in action with a good group. More about bards in another post.

The other leader types in the game are Clerics and Shamans and they do their thing just fine, but "Leader" has mostly been translated as "Healer" and with the Warlord (and the Bard too to a degree) this is just not the case. It's more like "Catalyst" as they make the whole party better, period, and are not just reactive defensive save-types like Clerics often have been - healing, curing, dispelling, etc.

Anyway, if you don't play 4th but have a chance to look at a 4th ed PHB take a look at the Warlord and see if there aren't some ideas there worth adapting to your game. Maybe it's a variant of Paladin - instead of bonuses to saves for himself maybe he grants a bonus to hit for allies within 10'. Maybe his holy avenger grants a healing aura instead of a dispel magic aura. I've had a few thoughts in this direction myself but I have yet to do anything concrete with it. We'll see what happens when my basic game gets rolling again next month.

More to come

It's been pretty busy here lately with kids and end of school activities but we have managed another session of both Necessary Evil and D&D 4 - I will post those up tomorrow, plus some thoughts on another new game somewhat tied to an old game.

NE Character Close-up: Night Terror

All we know about Night Terror is that he was a wealthy, successful assassin for-hire before the V'Sori came and that though he is still wealthy, he developed a problem - he got bored. Blessed with powers of darkness and with the ability to phase in and out of reality, he began infiltrating the alien facilities just to amuse himself. Eventually even he was caught and he went along with it just to amuse his jaded tastes. When Dr. Destruction rescued him it gave him a new challenge and a goal worthy of his considerable talents.

NE Character Close-up: MegaStrike

I have no written background for MegaStrike, but we know he is a "child of Chernobyl" from the former Soviet Union who fought Red Hammer and Scarlet Sickle in his youth. He is super-tough and super strong and he practically glows with low-level radiation that he can ratchet up when he feels the need.

NE Character Close-up: Night Blade

I don't have a background write-up for NightBlade, just pictures. All we know is that he is a ninja-ish character who wields a fancy katana and seems to know a lot about a wide variety of things:

NE Character Close-up: Nisavin

(For a change, here's something not written by me. This is the character background for Nissa in the Necessary Evil campaign, totally written by her player.)

Meredith Gibson grew up in the small town of Astoria under the watchful eye of her father, a small-town Southern Baptist preacher, and her mother, the ideal preacher’s wife with her ultra conservative looks, thoughts, and values. For most of her years, Meredith lived happily in her surroundings of a typical, simple, small-town life. As the only child, Meredith was doted on endlessly by both of her parents. But, when Meredith was just 15, her mother became very ill and died suddenly from a mysterious illness that even the most highly trained specialists couldn’t explain. Meredith would never fully recover from the loss of her sweet mother. The loss sent Meredith on a dark, steep path in the wrong direction on the roadmap of life that her parents had created for her.

Meredith soon tired of what she now considered her dull, claustrophobic, small town life and wished to travel the world. She was able to convince her father that by traveling the world and exploring places she had only read about or seen in movies, she would be able to stop grieving the loss of her mother and start living the life that her parents always wanted her to have. While he was hesitant to let his only child, his precious daughter, stray so far from the safe confines of their small town, Meredith’s dad knew that she would eventually go with or without his blessing.

Using her own savings and the money her father gave to her upon her departure, Meredith was able to travel from town to town frugally as her mother had taught her how to handle her money. Meredith met some fascinating people on her travels and most of them were kind and generous just like the small town folks she had grown up with. One night after dinner and a few drinks with friends, Meredith was walking alone back to her cheap loft apartment on the East coast. It wasn’t the best of neighborhoods but she had taken this same route many times in the past few months she lived there and had never felt any reason to fear for her safety. Before she even realized she wasn’t alone there was suddenly a stranger’s hand over her mouth and another strong hand around her waist. She briefly felt the cold touch of the stranger’s cheek before he sank his teeth into the soft skin of her neck. Meredith couldn’t move, couldn’t scream, she couldn’t break free from the clutches of the stranger that would forever change her life. Her world went completely dark.

She awoke alone in the alley near her loft. She was groggy and unsure of how much time had passed and what happened in the lapse of time. Meredith went to her loft, showered, and crawled into her warm bed for a solid night’s sleep. The changes weren’t immediate but it was only a matter of days before Meredith realized what she had become. She craved the taste of blood although she knew it was wrong, she had to have it to survive. She tried drinking the synthetic blood that was readily available in the vampire underworld and it sometimes helped to get her through the day but it was a far cry from the real thing. Meredith realized she could never return to her small town life and started the process of creating her new identity. There were some positive attributes that came along with the undeniable blood thirst. Meredith became unexplainably strong for her 5’5” slender frame. Her light brown hair had turned a beautiful dark black color that complimented the much lighter complexion of her skin. Her eyes turned darker as well although if she didn’t feed regularly they would turn a chilling color of deep red. Even though she didn’t struggle with the typical aversion to the sunlight, Meredith had a difficult time finding a typical job for a beautiful woman in her early 20’s.

Most recently, Meredith met a fellow vampire, Josie Sibohan, who was looking for a young vampire to serve as her personal assistant, manage her travel schedule and keep track of her expenses. Josie was much older than Meredith but looked almost identical to the striking young woman. Soon, Josie and Meredith, who had changed her name to Nisaven at Josie’s request, had forged a bond much stronger than a simple working relationship as Josie taught Nisaven how to control her urges and use her new found strengths to her advantage. Nisaven was a quick study and Josie relied on her for just about everything. They were together the day of the alien invasion……

Return to the Ruins of Adventure - Session 3: Goblin Hewing

Dusting themselves off after the goblin ambush, the party prods their prisoner into leading them to Whiteye's lair. Along the way he pleads with them to let him go once he shows them the front door. As they venture deeper into the ruins the heroes are on alert for ambushes, but the tied-up goblin still manages to pull one off, leading them into a goblin watchpost just as the party agrees to be lenient with him. "Oh thanks - uh, look out."

Goblin warriors appear from the ruins and charge as one goblin stays back and begins firing off spells. He opens with a cloud that obscures the small humanoids, but this doesn't save them from Althea's Thunderwave which blasts goblins in all directions, killing three. Several of the warriors are made of tougher stuff though and the battle continues for a full 30 seconds. The goblin hexer and the eladrin wizard trade a few spells and Althea ends up blinded. Mikal fires off many eldritch blasts and curses as he and the fighter and the swordmage cut down the remaining gobbos with help from the bard. In the end, Kordan and Dave the Swordmage go after the Hexer directly, with the fighter shield-bashing him senseless and the swordmage lightning luring him out of the rubble and into the street, where despite his attempts to flee he is quickly slain.

Resting for a moment, the bard figures out that the staff given to them by the beggars is magical Mnemoic Staff and hands it over to the wizard. Kordan and Dave brutalize the prisoner a bit to clarify the situation and he agrees to lead them directly to the lair, no more tricks.

Marching through the rubble the group comes to yet another partial ruin. Their goblin prisoner informs them that this is the lair, pointing to a set of steps leading down to a closed door. He waits as if expecting to be released until the party informs him he will be set free when the fight is over. The goblin pleads briefly then, crestfallen, sulks at the back of the party.

Moving down the steps, Kordan and the Swordmage take the lead with Althea, Mikal, and Javanni behind them, weapons ready. They kick open the door and see a large room with several big piles of rags and a small group of goblins playing dice in the middle. Having achieved surprise our heroes take several actions:

-Mikal blasts the nearest goblin

-Javanni shouts orders then viciously mocks one of the goblins, who starts to cry

-Kordan impales a goblin with a thrown javelin

- Althea Thunderwaves the whole mob

-The swordmage steps forward and the floor collapses, dumping him into a pit

Frustrated by the pit the party bogs down for a round or two but their attacks have slain the goblin guards so they have a chance to work around it. The swordmage and then the bard climb out, the warlock and fighter jump over it, and Althea teleports past it. Gobby the prisoner is questioned and threatened rather severely about the pit and his lack of mention that it was there, but he worms his way out of it. Then the swordmage takes a crossbow bolt to the shoulder and battle is rejoined.

The goblin HQ seems to be down to 2 warriors and the chief, Whiteye, who is clearly very angry at this intrusion. Combat goes on for some time with goblins dancing in and out of the rag piles and several party members taking a beating but in the end the chief falls to their efforts as does one of his warrior bodyguards and the other turns to flee. He makes it through several rows of hanging curtains, tapestries, and goblin laundry before opening a secret door and fleeing down an escape tunnel, where he is shot in the back by a magic missile.

Adhering to tradition, the heroes ransack the lair and loot the bodies, pausing briefly before they head back to civilization to claim their reward.

DM Notes:

• The prisoner ended up playing a larger role in this little expedition than I had expected and I was playing him on the fly pretty much the whole night. I may have to work up some standby "prisoner personality templates" for the future in case it happens again. "Self-centered goblin prisoner" isn't tough to do at this point for me but to make them different it might help to have some notes on hand - honor-bound prisoner, whiny disgruntled priosner, cold murderous prisoner, happy klepto prisoner - just some notes on goals, revenge/thanks attitudes, and actions when left unwatched for a brief time, probably scribbled on an index card should be enough.
• The mechanics are going pretty smoothly now for everyone as everything works in a similar way. At this level, the characters actually have more options than a similarly leveled PC in older editions with 2 or 3 at-will powers, a basic melee attack, a basic ranged attack, an encounter power, and a daily power, plus a possible alchemical item or two.
• Thunderwave is a horrific minion-sweeper. I can pretty much guarantee that if any bad guys are near each other when the fight starts then the minions among them will be dead by the end of round 1. Some say the wizard is underpowered compared to other controllers - I don't know but she is doing just fine so far.
• Some tactics are becoming quite regular: The fighter likes to throw a javelin to mark a target to open the fight then charge that target on round 2 and he has developed a nasty shield bash as a secondary maneuver. The Warlock like to curse as a minor action then hit that cursed target with his eldritch blast, later collecting the energy as temp hit points when that creature dies. The swordmage prefers to charge up on his targetsfor a basic melee attack and lightning lash/lure them if they are any distance away.
• The bard is interesting in that his regular attack is "Vicious Mockery" which is a damaging ranged attack that hits pretty hard but which we visualize as a string of profane insults (especially against goblins) that crushes their morale - it's an endless source of humor during fights as the content of said insults is speculated upon. He also has a lot of bonuses just for being nearby, especially when using action points, which after 4 straight encounters made regular appearances in this session.
• I was thinking we would get through 3 encounters this session and some of the party would level up, but we only managed 2 so 4 members of the party are at 800-something XP's and the Swordmage is at 700-something. The ambush lasted 5 rounds and the boss fight lasted for 9, so there was a lot more time taken on these than the earlier encounters. I still have 3 encounters planned for the Slums, but if they finish off any two of them then everyone should make it to 2nd level.
• Running through this I am still not sure about the money and magic items. The guidelines in the DMG seem very stingy especially with low-level items. I know my players are not going to be interested in making magic items so I may place more low-level items in future areas and encounters just to make sure everyone has some interesting things that aren't weapons or armor. One of the problems right now is that at level 1 there isn't any way to go below the party level - we're as low as you can get! Alchemical items might work here and taking our the alchemist in the ruins who is supplying stuff to the monsters could be a cool encounter.
• 4 or 5 Players is a really good number for D&D (probably of any edition) - enough variety to cover all the traditional jobs in a party, but not so many that we have annoying levels of niche overlap. Not so large that someone can sit back and do nothing, but not so small that if someone gets up to get a drink we have to pause and wait. It's going very well.

This Friday it's back to Necessary Evil as we attempt to get on a regular schedule of alternating games each week. I've been running games on Saturdays every other week for the last 9 years so it's really refreshing to have a weekly game again and players who are interested enough to make it work.

And another note on new editions - of everything

I was catching up on Warhammer news over the weekend (yes I play the Games Workshop stuff too) and apparently Warhammer 8th edition is due out in July. Great. I've been playing since 2nd edition back in 1984 and I think my playing time peaked with 4th edition (1992-1996) and has been decreasing with every edition since, despite having more armies to play with.

So I might need to temper my RPG edition unhappiness - at least we haven't run through 8 editions of D&D since 1982 like we have with Warhammer.

More thoughts on edition changes

Following up on yesterday's post I thought I would share my thoughts on some good and bad edition changes:

Star Wars d6 2nd edition - came out 7 years after 1st edition and compiled a lot of rule tweaks into the core book. Also, the changes were not to stats but in how the system worked, so tons of supplementary material were not invalidated by this update - GOOD

SWd6 2nd ed revised and expanded - only 2 years after 2nd edition (that was bad) but not so much a rules update as a core book update that was just incredible - full color, better organization, much better art and again it really didn;t invalidate anything that had come before, other than your core rulebooks - GOOD

Shadowrun 2nd ed - Cleaned up a lot of rules issues discovered in the 3-year run of SR1, set the foundation for a nice long run, and didn't invalidate 1st ed material - GOOD

Shadowrun 3rd ed - 6 years after 2nd - More rules tweaks and included conversion information in the back for almost all of the 2nd edition supplements which was awesome at the time, set the stage for another 6 year run - GOOD

MegaTraveller - 10 years after Traveller first appeared it came back in a new boxed set with 3 books that included greatly expanded character generation, ship and vehicle construction, and setting detail. It was "more" Traveller in every way and was excellent for both old and new players. The rules were an evolution of the prior set, not a total change which also left most of the prior material useable as written. Now as we found out later it had a LOT of errors and in the pre-internet era it was a lot harder to track down the errata sheets, and it never was as well supported as the black book edition but at the time it was great - GOOD

Traveller New Era - 5 years after Mega, we got the 3rd edition of Traveller and it was a radical change mechanically, rendering most of the older material unusable mechanically. I found the mechanics clean, logical, and to some degree realistic, but also kind of plain and boring. It also included a major timeline advance taking it from a classic galactic empire type setting to a post-apocalyptic in space setting, which while a cool idea, did not go over well as the mainline Traveller setting with existing fans. I gave it a try and liked it to some degree, but effectively it had nothing to do with the prior Traveller game either mechanically, thematically, or setting-wise and I'm going to call it the textbook example of how not to do an edition change - BAD

Traveller 4th - less than 5 years after TNE we got a whole slew of black-covered books from a previously unknown company that went retro in both look and setting and kind of mechanically as well. The setting was roled back to he start of the 3rd Imperium, the main Traveller setting for 1st and Mega editions - not a bad move. Mechanically it went back to d6's for task resolution but the system was quite a bit different, so a partial win there, but it was not compatible with the older material so in the end it's still a break. The game was also horrendously full of typo's and errors and died a quick death - BAD

Mongoose Traveller - roughly 10 years after the last edition Mongoose came out with a new edition intended to be a more generic set of rules that could be used for a variety of science fiction campaigns much like the original 3-book set of Traveller. It went back to a system that was very similar to original Traveller for task resolution, had a good basic starship construction and combat system that was again similar to the old, and had a look that was similar as well. It was a huge win being both appealing to old-school Traveller players and relatively rules-light which had been the trend in a lot of games over the last few years. Setting material has been published in separate books covering the classic Third Imperium well and adding settings as diverse as Hammer's Slammers and Babylon 5. In my opinion this is a textbook example of how to put out a new edition of a game that has a large fanbase but has been dormant for a while - GOOD

Twilight 2000 2nd edition - 6 years after 1st edition GDW rolled out a brand new system that completely invalidated the mechanical elements of the very well-supported T2K 1st edition. Mechanically this system was very limiting and T2K "Version 2.2" came out within 2 years which improved the system greatly, but 1st edition was very dry, very plain, with no "chrome" to make things interesting. Setting wise the game's background was altered a bit, but the core concept was the same so it avoided the 2nd major misstep of TNE noted above. It also largely reused artwork from the 1st edition material to help keep the feel of the game as T2K had a lot of very nice detailed pencil artwork that added a lot to the look and feel of the game and it was a smart move to keep this. However, considering they had to redo the rulebook within 2 years I'm going to call this one too a fail - BAD

Twilight 2012 - I admit I haven't read this one but I know it exists and I've read some reviews. Let's see, different mechanics that have little to nothing to do with either of the previous editions, a totally different background though technically it is the same - post nuclear America/Europe, plus it's a mechanically heavy game in an era of lighter rules so that's not looking good. On the plus side, it's been close to 20 years since the last edition was released so it has that going for it...really more pointless than BAD - it should have been a GURPS setting book for the realists and a Savage Worlds Book for the less hardcore among us.

Midnight 2nd edition and Conan 2nd edition - these were alternate d20 fantasy games that came out in the early 2000's and then turned around and put out a 2nd edition within 2 or 3 years and then republished most of the material already out. I'm not saying they weren't needed, but they felt like a cash grab coming that quickly considering how little changed mechanically and I dumped both games when it happened - BAD.

Arcana Evolved - coming out about 3 years after Arcana Unearthed this was to at least some degree driven by WOTC publishing a very similarly named D&D supplement and a desire to avoid confusion. It added in material from 2 prior supplements (which were not republished), added new races, new classes, expanded the magic system, and raised the level cap. It also went to full color for the entire book and spawned several very nice supplements that were not reprints. Despite the short turnaround time this was a vast improvement on the already very good original and didn't require the repurchase of the prior supplements, mitigating some of the usual edition change pain. - GOOD

Gamma World 2nd edition- kept the same system as 1st edition, added a lot of material, and gave it a great look that was still being used in some ways over 10 years later - Good

Gamma World 3rd edition - total system revamp, some background/setting changes, lots of errors and errata - I liked it for what it was, but it was a big change from 1 & 2 and drove off some fans. In a lot of ways it seemed like change for the sake of change - BAD

Gamma World 4th edition - another system change but it went back to something at least similar to 1st and 2nd in some ways. It added classes and a more systematic approach in many ways. You can see a lot of precursors to d20 in this version and it played very well. It also had been 8 years since 3rd. - GOOD

That's probably enough for now. One thing to note, I don't typically describe new editions as "upgrades" - that's because while it's always a change, it's not always better and upgrade implies improvement. it also implies an improvement to an existing base and in some of the more radical changes, (TNE, D&D4) there is no mechanical connection to the prior system so it can hardly be called an upgrade. Switching to an entirely different system is more properly termed a migration or a switchover than an upgrade.